In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Cam Leids
We talk about how unfortunate life events sometime lead to awakening and better life, we talk about choosing Ayahuasca retreat,
If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to
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Transcript
Sam Believ (00:03)
Hi guys and welcome to ayahuascapodcast .com. As always with you the host, Sam Belyev. Today I’m interviewing Cameron Leeds or Cam Leeds. Cameron is a host of Tripsetting Podcast ⁓ and he’s the founder of Conscious Retreats. All around a great guy. Cameron, welcome to the show.
Cam (00:23)
Thank you, Sam. Excited to be here, my friends.
Sam Believ (00:26)
Cameron, tell us a little bit about your story. You know, your life changed. We have something in common where we both went from…
Sam Believ (00:40)
highly lucrative and very soulless jobs to ⁓ maybe less lucrative, at least in the short term, but much more soulful jobs. So tell us your story and maybe even before that, your story of ⁓ getting into psychedelics.
Cam (00:56)
Yeah, man. So we do definitely have a similar story. And I remember connecting with you pretty deeply on that. But my story comes from way at the beginning, a background of ⁓ like drugs are bad and really believing that like people that did any type of drug, you know, were not productive members of society and they were really dangerous for you. And so I never really experimented with drugs. I experimented with alcohol when I was in high school, ⁓ alcohol.
Cam (01:26)
in my mind and in everybody else’s mind that was telling me drugs are bad wasn’t a drug. It was something completely different. ⁓ So that was really the only thing that I experimented with. And then once I got to college, experimented with cannabis a little bit, and it just was not for me. I did not have a good relationship with it. I did not understand the purpose of it. And so that was, that was never something that I ⁓ started developing a relationship with until.
Cam (01:55)
after college, ⁓ but you know, I had friends in college that were smart people, like, you know, people that were in med school and doing, you know, like chemistry and like all these like really kind of smart things and engineers that would ⁓ experiment with drugs. ⁓ And, you know, in my mind, I was thinking at that point, I’m like, well, like these people are some of the smartest people that I know and they’re using drugs. So I don’t think that drugs are necessarily the bad thing.
Cam (02:24)
And so that opened my mind up to at least trying different things. And believe it or not, it was actually ⁓ cocaine. That was the very first like ⁓ drug outside of alcohol that I actually really liked. And I certainly had a relationship with that for a couple of years, ⁓ but using that opened my eyes up to then trying other things. And so one of my friends came to me with some mushrooms one time. This was in…
Cam (02:53)
I believe 2018, I was probably 21 years old, and asked if I wanted to just do some mushrooms. And I knew nothing about psychedelics, mushrooms. I didn’t even know there were different strains. I didn’t know dosing or anything like that. I just trusted my friend. ⁓ And so we did that and it was a cool experience, but it certainly wasn’t like this mind altering, like life changing experience that I think some people definitely have the first time that they interact with psilocybin.
Cam (03:23)
⁓ but it was something I was like, yeah, I’d be, I’d be open to doing that in the future. And it wasn’t until six months later that I had my first experience with LSD. And that experience was like the big, aha, light bulb life changing moment of like, Holy shit. Like there is something here. There are things that I do not know. The things that I thought I knew might not necessarily be true. And that. ⁓
Cam (03:50)
caused me to really just start questioning things a little bit more and ⁓ not just about the world, but like really questioning things within myself. ⁓ Like I definitely used to be a kid that had like some anger issues that would get mad and that would really try to control things. And so it caused me to start questioning, why do I get mad when little things like this happen? I don’t ⁓ have to do that. Like it occurred to me that I’m the one making this choice.
Cam (04:18)
to be mad and so I can choose to just think a different way. ⁓ But I still didn’t quite know how to do that. I didn’t realize that there was still all of this research that was actually behind these substances and that they had been used in this capacity for healing. I was still using them like very recreationally and just, you know, having a lot of fun and experimenting with my own consciousness and still using other substances on the side too. But all of those experiences eventually led me to…
Cam (04:48)
When I was working in tech after college, I had a high paying job. I was successful on paper by every metric. And I still just had this feeling that I wasn’t fulfilled and that there was something I was missing. And I was just seeking something more and I had no idea what that thing was. I just knew that it was out there. And I had heard about Ayahuasca right at the beginning of the pandemic in 2020. And it,
Cam (05:17)
sparked my interest. ⁓ It was the first time I ever heard of it on some podcasts. And I was like, wow, that sounds really interesting, ⁓ but it just, like the timing was not right at that point. ⁓ And so hearing about Ayahuasca kept on showing up for me every couple months or so. And I kept hearing about it and thinking more about it. And that eventually led me to ⁓ booking my first Ayahuasca retreats in Peru ⁓ in September of 2022.
Cam (05:47)
And that retreat was three ceremonies over the course of a week. ⁓ And that absolutely just changed my life. I mean, it course corrected. It showed me that ⁓ all of the decisions that I had made up until that point ⁓ had not truly been ⁓ for me. They had all been to please other people or please society or please this idea that I had about myself in my head that wasn’t actually true.
Cam (06:16)
And so it showed me who I truly was. And then also how to love that person. Like that was the first time in my life that I experienced true deep self love. And from there, it helped me understand like that’s the only thing that actually matters. Like in order to be successful and to feel good and to feel wealthy, all I need to do is genuinely love myself for exactly who I am and trust that the universe will.
Cam (06:47)
put the things in place and show me what it is that I need to see ⁓ in order to then actually continue on that path. ⁓ And so I came back from that and was thinking, well, I don’t think I can keep working in tech anymore. This job just is not aligning with what it is that I want to do, but I had no idea what to do at that point. So I started the podcast, which I’d actually started just as a blog before I went to Peru to do ayahuasca, probably about four or five months earlier.
Cam (07:17)
but I started the podcast to just ⁓ have these conversations with people who are also awakening and having these thoughts. And then about a month later, I got laid off from my job and I knew that that was the right thing for me because right after it happened, I remember feeling so happy. Like I was just smiling. I was like, ⁓ well, that worked out pretty well. I didn’t need to like quit and worry about that. Cause I was, you know, probably going to be.
Cam (07:46)
too scared to actually quit myself and take that leap. So I think that was the universe’s way of just nudging me off and being like, okay, you wanted time to figure it out. Here’s your time. ⁓ And yeah, I just, I did a lot of thinking and soul searching during that time. And I was living in Chicago. I decided to move to Denver. I was continuing my work with the podcast and then I started conscious retreats just because my time trying to find a retreat center was
Cam (08:16)
kind of difficult. ⁓ And I remember thinking, I bet that there are other people that are looking to have this experience that are also just getting stuck in the process of finding the retreat center. ⁓ It seems like there’s so many choices and there’s not enough good information out there about what you’re doing, about what you should be looking for that, you know, I just wanted to be that sounding board for somebody else that’s going through that process to be able to actually talk through it and talk with somebody that has connected with.
Cam (08:46)
different retreat centers. So I started reaching out to a bunch of retreat centers and having conversations with them. ⁓ that just understands the landscape a little bit more. ⁓ and yeah, that eventually led me to ⁓ meeting some people that actually work with specific retreat centers. And now I work with a couple specific retreat centers doing like the intake and being a discovery guide, ⁓ and a guardian of their space. And then I also still do conscious retreats for anybody that comes to me through there.
Cam (09:14)
where I have like my own network of people or of centers that I feel comfortable getting people in contact with. So like, I’m never setting anything up. I’m never telling anybody, hey, you should go here because it’s always a really personal decision. I’m just helping make that decision process easier and helping people take it step by step. So it doesn’t feel like the whole world is just, you know, coming in on them and they have a million things to think about. We’ll just take it one step at a time. So that would be a…
Cam (09:43)
That would be my story in a nutshell.
Sam Believ (09:47)
It’s a good story and a very familiar one, you know, having that. And I meet so many people coming to the wire as well that say, you know, I have done everything society ever wanted me to do. I have this job, I have this relationship. I have this, you know, I achieved this stuff that, you know, having an apartment or whatever, a car.
Sam Believ (10:08)
It’s like, where is the happiness? You know, you promise in our society that if you do things right, then in the end of it, there is the pot of gold at the end of this rainbow and you’re gonna be happy. But the happiness never comes. Even worse as you finish that pursuit and like dopamine -driven…
Sam Believ (10:28)
And you get there, you’re empty as ever and you start to get depressed and stuff like that. So I was in that position myself. And as just like you with your synchronicity, ⁓ with that layoff, that kind of a little nudge that you needed. I also had a synchronicity. I was working in offshore oil and gas and I was actually really well off because I’m from Latvia originally. Like I remember.
Sam Believ (10:55)
asking my ex -girlfriend what her wage was and even though she was like university specialist, I was making more in a day working in offshore oil and gas than she was making in a month. So it’s like, I was really like, you know, kind of there’s a dream everyone kind of wanted my job and here I am not enjoying it. And there’s also guilt that comes with that. It’s like what the hell is wrong with me? But there was a moment where for some reason, I mean, I think oil prices dropped or something like that and they cut our wages in half.
Cam (11:16)
Yeah.
Sam Believ (11:25)
And even though it was still an awesome wage, I was like, that’s my way out. I need to quit because I was really unhappy. And for me, the first step was travel. And then after travel came the psychedelics because obviously I had to come to Columbia first to discover them. But I was thinking a lot about layoffs as a synchronicity and that people don’t really generally take them that way. It reminds me of that movie In the Air or where this guy, George Clooney, he like flies around and fires people. Have you seen it?
Cam (11:29)
Mm -hmm.
Cam (11:52)
Mmm, yeah. Yeah.
Sam Believ (11:53)
And I had this crazy idea like we should start a business where the layoffs happen and instead of sending this guy, we send everyone to an ayahuasca retreat so that they can actually like find their new path because finding the path is not easy. You know, this dark night of a soul where you’re by yourself and you don’t know what the hell is wrong with you. Can you tell us about that experience? How was it for you when you ended up without job? Obviously you felt it was positive, but I’m sure it was not all.
Cam (12:03)
Ha ha.
Sam Believ (12:23)
⁓ giggles and rainbows and butterflies, right?
Cam (12:27)
No, it’s not. And I have a big smile on my face and I laugh about it now because it can be really easy to glance over just how difficult it was. ⁓ And so I’m glad that you asked that question. And I talk about it like, yeah, I came back, I got laid off, I was totally fine. And then I did this and then I moved and blah, blah, blah. But ⁓ I remember during the time, I mean, that was the most turbulent period of my life. Like it…
Cam (12:56)
it felt like I had hit rock bottom. And I think when people use that term hitting rock bottom, it’s usually seen as a negative thing, but I knew that that was what I needed to do. Like I needed to essentially tear down my entire foundation. Like everything in my life that I had done, that I had built ⁓ was ⁓ shown to me through working with Ayahuasca ⁓ that maybe this isn’t true. And…
Cam (13:26)
having your foundation just absolutely shaken like that can be ⁓ fucking terrifying. And so like, I remember when I came back, the analogy that I was working with a therapist at the time and just talking to my friends about what it felt like coming back. And I used this analogy that it basically was like, ⁓ before I came there, my life could be represented by this house. And this house was like a, you know, a pretty nice brick house. And then,
Cam (13:55)
Ayahuasca just absolutely shook the hell out of that house. And when I came back, it was still being shaken and all I could do was sit there and watch it continue to be shaken and basically watching all of the bricks fall brick by brick by brick. And there was nothing I could do to make it go faster. And there was nothing I could do to stop them from falling. I just had to sit there and watch the bricks that represented my life fall down.
Cam (14:24)
brick by brick. And then once it settled, that was when I could really actually start that rebuilding process of, okay, this is what I want to do. This is for me. This is now ⁓ coming from that place of self -love and security and trust in the universe and, you know, connection to source that, that would build a much better house than anything that was ever there beforehand. ⁓ and so no, it was not, it was not easy and.
Cam (14:53)
I think intention also has a lot to do with it. So with people that are looking to work with ayahuasca, if they, if you know, if you don’t have the intention that you’re really looking to make that course correcting, like, you know, live more in alignment with yourself, you know, the medicine usually meets you where you’re at. Like you’re, you’re probably not going to get that insane foundation shaking experience that some people talk about, but you know, if you come to the medicine with respect and the understanding that.
Cam (15:23)
you really are committed to making that change. The medicine will help you do that and it’ll shed light on some of the shadows within yourself and some of the blind spots that you weren’t able to see beforehand to really help you do that. So the medicine helped me do that, but it was certainly not easy. And it’s been over a year and a half and I’m still integrating that first experience every single day of my life.
Sam Believ (15:50)
Yeah, that’s not easy to switch the operation mode from like, ⁓ I can compare it, the analogy that comes to mind is like you’re there with two machetes going through the jungle and just ripping it off to find the path.
Sam Believ (16:05)
versus you just standing there in a jungle and like listening and then following ⁓ the natural crevices of the jungle. It’s kind of like you can be in control and just constantly be pushing or you can just let go of control and be like, universe is gonna guide me. And for somebody who spent their entire life following some kind of…
Sam Believ (16:25)
predetermined path and just going somewhere ⁓ and always being in control and always like, I need to get good grades. I need to get, learn this and get this course and get there.
Sam Believ (16:36)
all of a sudden to just let go and do nothing and just wait for the synchronicity and like work with the medicine and there’s like I now absolutely believe that is the right path and there will be synchronicities ⁓ and the universe will support you but that feeling of weightlessness that moment of like freefall
Cam (16:56)
Haha.
Sam Believ (16:56)
That’s actually ⁓ what brought me personally to deeper work with ayahuasca. So I had my ayahuasca experience ⁓ and then I had another one six months later and they were all very profound, but I never really saw the connection between them and actual life change. I just thought ayahuasca is one thing and life is the other thing. I didn’t think it was so connected. And then my life just started to fall apart, similar to yours. And then, and this moment of weightlessness is where I came to.
Cam (17:14)
Mm -hmm.
Sam Believ (17:26)
to ayahuasca full -time but it was because this state made me depressed and then I came to ayahuasca to heal from depression and like but it’s like now I can see at least 10 synchronicities through last ⁓ five to six years that brought me exactly where I am and now I understand that’s exactly where I need to be and now I went from ⁓ kind of pushing to just observing and being there’s a
Sam Believ (17:53)
The same thing recurs, recurs two, three times and you hear it from two, three people and you’re like, okay, there’s something there and you started exploring that, but it’s like a very intuitive way to go about life. So yeah, it’s a, it’s something I was still figuring out.
Cam (17:58)
Mm -hmm.
Sam Believ (18:08)
What I notice is you started by saying drugs, drugs, drugs, and now you start talking about medicine, medicine. So where is that shift where it stopped being drugs free and became medicine? Or maybe it is the way you use it where it can be both a drug and a medicine. Talk to us about that.
Cam (18:26)
I would say that it’s the latter. ⁓ I think it’s the intention behind it. If you’re looking to use it as medicine, it’s going to be medicine. If you’re using it as a drug, it’s going to be ⁓ more so a drug. And the interesting thing is there’s no actual difference. Ayahuasca is technically, if you look at Miriam Webster’s definition, it’s technically a drug. And I think we just have so much stigma.
Cam (18:56)
on that word because of the war on drugs here in America that rippled through the entire world and fucked everything. ⁓ That there’s just a lot of negative stigma attached to that. ⁓ But I believe that there can be crossover between the two. Like I’ve used ⁓ recreational like MDMA to go to a concert and had an amazing like spiritual healing experience there. ⁓
Cam (19:24)
And so there’s definitely crossover between the two. ⁓ And I think it really just does come down to like, what is your intention behind it? How are you using this? Cause like now when I do that, if I have the same experience, I’m still looking at it as like, this is medicine that I’m just using in this type of setting. So like being able to, to understand your set and setting, having intention behind why you’re doing it, who you’re with, understanding what might come up during that and being able to feel supported.
Cam (19:53)
I think you can use these substances as medicine in a variety of different ways. So like, I definitely don’t believe in like the gatekeeping of it and like, ⁓ these have to be used specifically more like mushrooms and MDMA when people think that they have to be used in a ceremonial context. Like if you see life as a ceremony, well then you are always using them in some sort of ceremonial context. ⁓
Cam (20:21)
Ayahuasca, I think, is one of those that I would probably only do in specific ceremonies that are led by medicine guides that have actually studied and have really deep personal relationships with them. That’s at least where I’m at now with Ayahuasca, but some of the other ones I have a little bit more leeway with in my own personal experience.
Sam Believ (20:43)
Yeah, I was cause definitely an outlier. It’s kind of, it’s just not, it’s just not going to let you use it in a, in a like, ⁓ concert setting or you just imagine the festival. ⁓ Yeah. The poor festival will need lots of cleaning afterwards because of all the purging, but, there are, there are definitely moments on the Alaska when you can absolutely enjoy music.
Cam (20:45)
Yeah.
Cam (20:52)
No, I’m gonna I’d be I’d be ⁓ in and out of the bathroom the whole time like ⁓
Cam (21:02)
Yeah. ⁓
Sam Believ (21:09)
and connected much more. I like what you say ⁓ about ⁓ the medicines or drugs. Yeah, definitely destigmatizing a word drug would be simple because ⁓ sometimes, you know, it is…
Sam Believ (21:24)
It is what it is, right? Doesn’t matter how you call it. It’s just what it is. But ⁓ those are tools, right? So the analogy I like to use is you have a knife and you can use a knife to make a salad or cook a steak and do good things. Or you can stab somebody in the heart. So you ⁓ can take mushrooms and ⁓ go and like trip and like do crazy shit and like maybe regret it next day. Or you can like sit with it consciously or somewhere in the middle.
Cam (21:28)
Yeah.
Sam Believ (21:54)
you can also ⁓ use it ceremonially or use it as ⁓ a celebration. For me personally, whenever there is a mushroom ceremony, we don’t do mushroom ceremonies, unfortunately in Colombia it’s kind of a grey area.
Cam (22:10)
Mm -hmm.
Sam Believ (22:12)
Whenever I attended mushroom ceremonies, they felt less like ceremony and more like celebrations because there is this inherent ⁓ property of mushrooms that just makes everyone giggly and happy. And it’s hard.
Cam (22:16)
Yeah.
Cam (22:23)
There’s much more of a social aspect behind it.
Sam Believ (22:25)
Yeah, it’s like you want to interact with people like with I was going to treat that the wire were like very strict, not talking with mushrooms. I you can’t even like enforce that people just they’re going to laugh and they’re going to and that’s a that’s the beauty of it, right? To to be able to have those different tools in your toolbox where you can like, okay, I’m going to do I was once a year for a week and really like go go deep with them. You know, maybe three months later, I’m kind of in a in a very low space. You know, let me let me do some mushrooms.
Sam Believ (22:55)
and in between I’m going to meditate and do breath work and it’s like people just want like whatever is your way is the only right way and I think it’s just not nice and personally I must admit ⁓ to all my listeners I work with Alaska once a month but occasionally I also work with mushrooms and I can if I if I’m having a really bad day I can take a microdose and do some breath work and like recover my day.
Cam (23:15)
Mm -hmm.
Sam Believ (23:23)
It’s just an awesome tool. What do you personally work with right now? What is your… What is your psychedelic routine looks like through the year? What do you do and how do you do it and why?
Cam (23:39)
So my two biggest tools in the toolbox are meditation and journaling. Those are like the foundation. And it wasn’t something that I did before I had my experience with Ayahuasca. It was something I had tried in the past ⁓ and never did consistently. And then after my experience with Ayahuasca, I just realized it was like, it was no longer, I’m just trying to do this to achieve something.
Cam (24:06)
It was just a feeling like, I just need to do this. This is something that like my body likes and needs and gives you the ability to slow down and then also connect to source. ⁓ You ⁓ know, when I’m doing a certain practices. So those are definitely the two biggest. ⁓ I’ll definitely still use mushrooms ⁓ and usually not super high doses. Like I’ve tried some very, very high doses of mushrooms before. ⁓ They’ve usually been solo.
Cam (24:36)
which is definitely a little bit different than when you’re in a container that’s able to hold you. So I’ve never actually done like a real mushroom ceremony before where I’ve been held in that container and I’m actually being guided through a mushroom journey. ⁓ Usually when I use mushrooms, it’s, you know, I’m out camping. I just want to connect a little bit more to myself and to nature. And so, you know, I’ll take maybe up to a gram. ⁓
Cam (25:02)
but I’ll just be able to feel a little bit more. Breathwork is something that I really do want to get more into. I don’t know, I’m just lazy. ⁓ And you know, breathwork ⁓ is work, man. I’ve had some really crazy experiences with breathwork before. ⁓ And I think that’s another one of those things. Like I feel more comfortable being in a container where right now, at least in my journey, where somebody’s leading me through breathwork, just because I know how powerful.
Cam (25:32)
it could be. ⁓ And so, yeah, I’d like to get more into that at the moment, ⁓ but yeah, meditation, journaling, those are the two biggest things. ⁓ Also just working out, like when I’m working out and feeling physically fit, I feel so much better and it’s really interesting, because when things start to get crazy around me, that’s usually one of the first things that I see like slipping, is like I stopped consistently going to the gym, working out and like treating my body. ⁓
Cam (26:02)
the way it needs to. And then once I start doing that, things become so much more clear again, just because my body feels good. ⁓ You know, I get to thank my body for taking my spirit through this crazy human experience.
Sam Believ (26:17)
Yes, I like to say when people are leaving the wire, I step on the bus and one of the things I say is like, do everything your mom or your grandma told you to do, you know, exercise, eat healthy. The difference is that after your psychedelic experience, you’re more likely to actually be able to change those habits because you’re flexible and malleable in your brain.
Sam Believ (26:40)
So, but if you go and like choose bad habits, they will stick stronger as well. I’m glad you’re mentioning journaling. Like we at Lowire, we give people a integration journal. Like the first few pages is the, like,
Sam Believ (26:55)
template for integration like questions that help them save more of their iOS experience. And then it’s just a free flow journal because I, as a side effect, I say if the only thing you get from this experience is a newly found habit of journaling, that’s already a huge, huge win for.
Cam (27:14)
That’ll change your life.
Sam Believ (27:15)
us. Because people want this big bang thing that just once and for all will change everything. But in reality even the strongest Thai watching experience is going to tell you what to do, it’s not going to do it for you. And the work, when people ask like what is that work that I need to do, well journaling is one of those things.
Cam (27:28)
Yeah.
Cam (27:33)
Mm -hmm.
Sam Believ (27:34)
So you with Conscious Retreats, your new project, you help people choose retreats, right? What do you ⁓ take into account? What do you look into? What are your parameters? And if you like, I’ll tell you mine as well afterwards.
Cam (27:53)
So the biggest thing is I like to meet people where they’re at. So I’m never trying to sell somebody ⁓ on ⁓ going to an ayahuasca retreat or going to a mushroom retreat. When they come to me, they should have already made that decision. And so the first thing I need to assess is have you actually made this decision? ⁓ And like a lot of the time people haven’t made that decision yet.
Cam (28:21)
And then that’s where I have to meet them. Like I won’t even tell them about any single retreat center until they understand that this is actually something that they wanna do. And it’s something that they’ve decided themselves that they wanna do. Like I don’t wanna ever convince somebody. ⁓ So once somebody is at that state, then we can talk a little bit more logistics. I’ll typically ask some questions about their physical and mental health to get an idea of if there are any contraindications that.
Cam (28:50)
they need to be aware of that maybe they weren’t aware of before. Talk about some diet changes that are typically helpful to make beforehand and really just making sure that they understand this is a process and not a quick fix. ⁓ Anybody that ever comes to me and is like, man, it’s like something just happened in the life. They just broke up with their partner and they’re like, I just broke up with my partner. I’ve been here about ayahuasca, I need to go now, I need to figure this out. It’s like.
Cam (29:17)
Let’s, let’s pump the brakes a little bit. Let’s stop and slow down. And like, do you, do you understand what you’re getting yourself into? ⁓ and then from there, then it really just becomes about logistics. Like, can you travel? Do you have a budget? ⁓ you know, do you have an idea of what this is in your mind that you’re looking forward? Do you want a big group? You want a small group? Do you care? ⁓ and things like that. And then it’s just playing connection. I’ll then just connect them with the retreat center, usually like the founder or somebody there that I know.
Cam (29:47)
⁓ and I’ll let them take it from there. Then I’ll be very hands off. ⁓ and if it, if, if they have that conversation and the energy doesn’t feel right, they come back to me and we try again, ⁓ with another center that I know of. And I tell them, sometimes it can be a process. You’re not supposed to just say yes right away. ⁓ unless, unless that does feel like the right move. ⁓ but that’s the, the, the biggest thing to kind of reiterate at the beginning, it’s, it’s meeting people where they’re at and really getting to the truth.
Cam (30:17)
because I think that, and this is something I do too, like I have this idea in my head of who I am and maybe where I’m at in my journey that might not actually be true. It’s something that I’m trying to convince myself of ⁓ for whatever reason. So sometimes being able to have that conversation and get to that truth, it can be really hard for people because sometimes I have to say, I don’t think you’re ready or I don’t think you actually want this. ⁓
Cam (30:46)
And that usually can trigger a lot of people. And if it triggers somebody, it’s because they know deep down that it’s probably true.
Sam Believ (30:54)
Yeah. And how do you vet or choose retreats? What is your criteria for a good ayahuasca retreat, for example?
Cam (31:02)
Ooh, so I mean, it very much has to do with the energy of the people that started the retreat center. So it’s just getting a sense of like, why are you doing this? Like what led you to want to do this work? And then also, you know, some other actual logistics stuff of, you ⁓ know, who are the people that are serving medicine there? What’s their experience understanding? Have you dealt with bad situations before? How you deal with those? ⁓
Cam (31:32)
making sure that they’ve done their own work first. You know, people that haven’t done their own work and have gone on one retreat and then decide to buy a retreat center or something like that. You know, I’m probably not gonna send anyone there because, you know, they just haven’t done their own work. They haven’t really truly gone through their own journey. ⁓ And so, you know, I want people that are really respectful to the medicine, respectful of people’s experiences and ⁓ just energetically aligned with that. And a lot of that does have to do with,
Cam (32:01)
intuition and feeling it out. And I’m not going to pretend like I’m perfect too. And so I want to make that very, very clear that I am not the perfect guy, like the be all, say all. I’m sure there are some great retreat centers that maybe I haven’t had the best feeling of when I’ve talked to them. And I’m sure that maybe, well, that hasn’t happened yet, but like if, if somebody that, that I do trust, I send them to again, like not everybody is for everybody. So it’s, it’s getting a sense of that of like,
Cam (32:30)
who do I believe this one would be the right person for, whereas who do I think this one might be sort of a better fit? I don’t know if that answers that completely, but that was probably the best way that I could answer that. ⁓
Sam Believ (32:42)
It’s hard to answer. ⁓ There’s definitely this thing where different retreats have different vibes and it’s kind of like, you know, you can have 10 people but only one of them will be your friend because you have that vibe. So some people might be vibing with one kind of retreat and some people without the kind of retreat. But if you’re curious, I can tell you my parameters. So…
Cam (33:05)
Yeah, I am.
Sam Believ (33:08)
I believe that like gold standards when it comes to ayahuasca retreat specifically is number one an indigenous shaman. ⁓ Even more platinum standard would be if he comes from lineage meaning like his dad is a shaman his dad’s dad was a shaman and like that. That’s like you know Lamborghini of the shamans. Number two is he himself or his family they grow.
Cam (33:27)
Mm -hmm.
Cam (33:34)
Or she.
Sam Believ (33:35)
What or she yeah, that’s true. That my most they drank with my most as well. They’re they’re awesome. They grow their own medicine. They cook their own medicine and they serve their own medicine meaning like everything is done with same hands.
Cam (33:49)
Yeah, I think that that’s really important because it’s a lot of the time with ayahuasca, it’s the energy that’s being put into the medicine that then helps them to be able to activate it once they then serve that. So if it’s being cooked by somebody else with different energy and different intentions, you could be the greatest shaman in the world, but it can still not energetically align with the way that you activate the medicine.
Sam Believ (34:13)
Yeah, then if it is, if the shaman is a European or just a local white guy, I say that they have to have dedicated at least five to ten years of time to…
Sam Believ (34:26)
to learn the craft because this whole thing about you come in, drink ayahuasca once and you’re like, I’m a shaman now. That is very triggering for me after working with the ayahuasca for three years and understanding the complexity of it. It’s kind of like somebody saying that I’m a neurosurgeon after, you know, just sending an application letter to a university.
Cam (34:48)
after getting brain surgery, them then trying to be like, I’m now a neurosurgeon. ⁓
Sam Believ (34:51)
Yeah, yeah, I’ve seen, I kind of seen what they did to me, so I’m ready now. And for that, the analogy I like to use is don’t confuse the invitation letter to study in university with a diploma. Because we’ve seen some people that even came through our doors that wanted to speed up their process of becoming shamans. So I think there is a possibility for white shamans and, you know,
Cam (34:57)
Yeah.
Sam Believ (35:21)
Gringo Shamans, but it needs to be done with reverence. So another thing, gold standards, is the team has to have at least one facilitator for every three people in the group. Like if it’s more than that, then if there is a crisis moment, they might be overwhelmed. The place has…
Cam (35:34)
Mm -hmm.
Cam (35:41)
I see, so that I’m gonna say some places where I do disagree with you and that’s probably the one where I would. I think that it really just, that one for me at least depends on the experience of that team. ⁓ Like one for every, I mean I would say like one for every five probably at the very minimum. ⁓ Like gold standard is definitely one for every three. But like I think that there’s, I think there’s a little bit of leeway there at least in my book, yeah.
Sam Believ (35:55)
Mm -hmm.
Sam Believ (36:05)
Yeah, I’m…
Sam Believ (36:09)
There is definitely, I’m talking about like absolute ⁓ industry, industry best.
Cam (36:12)
absolute gold gold standard. Yeah, no, I mean if like I think one for every three is perfect.
Sam Believ (36:18)
Yeah. Then I would say you need to have, ⁓ also one, ⁓ one bathroom for every five participants. And I’m only saying it now because we just finished our Maloka and I got eight bathrooms. So I’m a little biased because I was, it’s such a, such a pain point for an ayahuasca retreat. The, I think they should definitely provide integration, ⁓ in some form or another.
Cam (36:26)
⁓ Yeah. ⁓
Cam (36:42)
Mm -hmm.
Sam Believ (36:45)
have an integration coach on staff or maybe at least remotely. What else?
Sam Believ (36:54)
Those are the things that immediately come to mind. Maybe having a hospital nearby is a good idea as well. I’ve been running retreats for three years now. We never needed a hospital, but it makes people feel comfortable. Like when we say, like, we have a hospital seven minutes away. It calms them down. And…
Sam Believ (37:13)
Yeah, those are the things that come to mind. But there’s a huge variety of the ways you can do it and different traditions and some do ceremonies in the day, some do it at the night. So when it comes to that, I would say ⁓ whichever retreat you choose to and whichever tradition you choose to work with, definitely come with an open mind and just allow them to do the work the way they do it. It’s kind of like don’t come to an Italian restaurant expecting like a borsch or something like that. It’s kind of like, it’s still, you know, pizza is going to feed you and it’s going to be nice. But if you expect borsch, you
Cam (37:37)
Mm -hmm.
Sam Believ (37:43)
will be disappointed.
Cam (37:45)
I, ⁓ I agree with that. And I think also, ⁓ a common misconception that people don’t understand with ayahuasca is that there are many different ways to serve medicine. They do it differently in Brazil than they do in Columbia, than they do in Peru, then they do in other parts of Peru, then they do in Guatemala and Ecuador. And so like, you know, they’re, they’re using what we would all consider ayahuasca.
Cam (38:10)
but it’s still slightly different medicine. There are different alkaloids that are gonna be present in the one that’s cooked in Peru versus the one that’s cooked in Columbia. ⁓ And so, you know, as somebody who, like when you’re first coming to Ayahuasca, I think probably the most popular one that people hear about is the Chapiba tradition. And so that’s not the only one though. There are other traditions and other ways that people do medicine. So being able to have that open mind and understanding, they’re all healing.
Cam (38:40)
You just have to understand that and be open to that experience that you’re going to have. But if you’re expecting one specific thing, as you said, and then you get something else, you’re just going to be disappointed. So being able to have that open mind and realize that they all work. You just have to be open to the process.
Sam Believ (38:58)
Yeah, it’s also same to the ayahuasca experiences themselves. If you expect a specific kind of vision that you saw in a YouTube video and then you’re getting something else, while you are putting your attention, expecting something, you’re missing out this ⁓ ton of valuable stuff. Cameron, what’s the maybe recent or one of your ayahuasca experiences that you can recall something, let’s say, what’s the craziest or the most interesting experience you’ve ever had?
Cam (39:13)
Yeah.
Cam (39:28)
So I’ll talk about my most recent experience. I was in Costa Rica ⁓ about six weeks ago ⁓ and ⁓ I was just there actually visiting some of the centers that I work with. I had no plans to actually sit with Ayahuasca ⁓ and I got invited to sit in ceremony with somebody that I was staying with that I was connected to through a friend. ⁓ And it was also to like a huge synchronicity. I was having a very deep conversation with my partner.
Cam (39:56)
the night before we got invited to that ceremony, telling her how I feel very called to the medicine and I haven’t been taking the time for myself to go do it. And, you know, it’s something that we committed to that night that we were going to find some time for me to sit with the medicine. And then the very next morning, ⁓ the guy was like, hey, we’ve got some, we’ve got some extra spots of this retreat happening in three days. You guys want to come? And I was like, well, I guess the universe just threw that in our lap. ⁓ So, so yeah, so we’re, we.
Cam (40:24)
We decided to do that. ⁓ And the, the style of ceremony was, ⁓ Santo Daime, but it was more of like a shamanic Santo Daime like mixture together. For those that don’t know Santo Daime comes from Brazil. ⁓ it’s a, it’s, it’s actually technically a religion there that uses ayahuasca as their sacrament. ⁓ but it was really cool. Cause in, in the ceremony, I’d only sat with Chapiba before, but this ceremony, there’s a big fire in the middle. And so when you’re in the Maloca, you could actually see everybody.
Cam (40:54)
⁓ and it just feels very community oriented. ⁓ and you know, I’d say the, the rules are probably a little bit more lax, at least at this specific one than they are in certain tripubo traditions or, you know, where, where you might go, but they set up a fire outside of the Maloka too. So you could leave and you could be outside in nature and actually sitting by the fire that was outside. And ⁓ during the second ceremony, I was outside by that fire and.
Cam (41:25)
just sitting there, being in nature and like seeing the stars ⁓ and ⁓ putting my feet in the ground. I got down on my hands and knees. I was just feeling the earth ⁓ and like I could feel the pulse of the universe and feel that I was a part of that and that that is a part of me and that we are all truly just one being of collective consciousness experiencing itself through all of these different vessels.
Cam (41:55)
it’s still indescribable, ⁓ that feeling right there. And so that was ⁓ just really cool. And that wasn’t something that I really felt as deeply during my first experience. I think my first experience was like a lot of trauma and like a lot of shit just being judged up. Whereas this past experience was just pure awe and amazement and ⁓ happiness and euphoria. It was really beautiful.
Sam Believ (42:24)
Sounds amazing. It’s without asking, like you never know what’s going to come. Sometimes you’re going to have this really beautiful and just all around pleasant trip. And the other time it’s very difficult, but nevertheless very productive. That’s what gives ⁓ me so much reverence to this medicine. You just, it’s like, it gives you what you need. So I guess what you needed that point is that I had one of my last ceremonies maybe.
Sam Believ (42:53)
two ceremonies ago or three, I had a similar experience. I was also sitting by the Maloka outside around the fire. We only have fire outside because ⁓ yeah, I wouldn’t want to deal with the smoke and fire hazard of it. But I was in a deep process and then I was looking, I looked down my legs and I could see my legs becoming ⁓ like a bull, like a bull, bull feet, you know, like the, the,
Cam (43:06)
Yeah.
Cam (43:22)
⁓ yeah.
Sam Believ (43:22)
Yeah, and then I could see like fur on my legs and I ⁓ started feeling this desire to make like a bull like noises, you know, like when the bull is about to charge and I completely freaked out and I like pushed that experience away because I thought it was something demonic and I was like, what the hell is happening? And then I regretted it because I realized that it was it was sprawling my spirit animal trying to like…
Cam (43:30)
Mm -hmm.
Sam Believ (43:47)
getting back to me so I really still to this day regret ⁓ kind of like overriding that experience because I if it felt too much too much energy almost like I was becoming an animal that’s a very ⁓ unusual feeling but it felt after going back to it it didn’t feel bad it felt nice it felt like natural so
Cam (44:08)
It’s like these really ⁓ ancient primal instincts of ours, like as to how humans form. There’s all this crazy DNA that’s within us from millions and millions and millions of years of evolution. And actually, I remember during that experience when I was sitting outside by the fire, ⁓ afterwards I remember getting up and I had this urge to honestly sort of start ⁓ jumping around and making monkey sounds. ⁓
Cam (44:37)
and just like in like a very, very playful mood of that. And I didn’t do it at the time just because I didn’t want to be super loud or anything. But like I did kind of like allow myself to really feel that and like feel those really primal instincts ⁓ to just honestly like play and have fun and, you know, just do things that don’t necessarily make sense in human society these days. But.
Cam (45:03)
But they are primal instincts that are within us that do feel good. ⁓ So yeah, thank you for.
Sam Believ (45:08)
Yeah, genetically, it’s super funny. Like you have all the necessary genetics to also be a banana, right? Sometimes you might feel in the ceremony like a banana on the concrete. It’s like unable to move and just ⁓ being in the moment. It’s interesting. So do you reckon one, you’re a spirit animal or one of them is a monkey?
Cam (45:14)
Exactly. ⁓
Cam (45:30)
I think, I really do think it is to be honest, cause like I am a very playful individual. And it’s funny, my uncle, when I was a kid growing up, he always used to just call me a little monkey. He still does actually, but I’m 27 now. ⁓ So.
Sam Believ (45:46)
Yeah, I hope that doesn’t offend you, but you do have some of that monkey energy, like in a good way.
Cam (45:53)
No, no, I ⁓ love it. I think it’s great.
Sam Believ (45:56)
Yeah. Well, it’s another kind of warmth, right? ⁓ The deeper spiritual side of things, because ⁓ with Ayahuasca, like at Lawara we say our motto is connect, heal, grow. It’s like you come, you connect to the medicine and connect with the group, connect with yourself, connect with the higher ⁓ self, connect with God, universe, whatever. Then you heal physically, like you get rid of stuff and then you grow. But this growth part is where Ayahuasca becomes…
Sam Believ (46:25)
like unlimited like the doesn’t matter how many times you drink there is always going to be something new because ⁓ like I honestly believe those states of consciousness you go to on ayahuasca are even ⁓ more profound and more complex than this reality ⁓ it’s kind of like there’s layers and layers and layers and you can go and do your limitless spiritual exploration and this whole like naturalistic
Sam Believ (46:50)
animal spirits and talking to the plants and it’s like that’s that’s another kind of worms like it’s like there’s so much to explore they’re like what it means what is that for it’s like ⁓ people people ask you sometimes like if you they think like you drink ayahuasca once and it fixes you forever so you never have to do it again but then it’s like why do you keep doing it where it’s you do it for yourself first and then you do it for others and you also do it to just limitlessly ⁓ explore the
Cam (47:06)
Mm -hmm.
Cam (47:15)
do it for the rest of humanity. Like it feels like that by me going in and healing myself, I’m helping ⁓ everybody else and everything else on earth to also have the courage and heal too. ⁓ Something that I do definitely just wanna add is like, ⁓ you know, we talk about these experiences while we’re on Ayahuasca and they’re great and amazing, but it is very important that we do then need to come down and do that work.
Cam (47:45)
on earth and be here and be present and be sober. Like we can’t be flying high all the time or else you’re just bypassing. And so, you know, the work is done not in ceremony. The work in my eyes is done after the ceremony. It’s done through that integration. And we definitely touched on that before, but I always like to reiterate that to people.
Sam Believ (48:07)
Absolutely, yeah. Ayahuasca gives you homework. You gotta do it. Do you have any favorite books on the topic you would like to recommend?
Cam (48:17)
The Untethered Soul, one of my absolute favorite books by Michael Singer. ⁓ The Four Agreements is obviously a great one too. ⁓ I definitely do have other ones. I just can’t think at the moment. I would definitely say like number one is the Untethered Soul. So definitely check that out if you haven’t.
Sam Believ (48:36)
Hmm.
Sam Believ (48:39)
Cool, well, Kam, I think it’s time to wrap it up. I think it was a very interesting and entertaining episode for people. Where can people find more about you and any last words?
Cam (48:52)
Yeah. So one first, thank you so much for having me Sam. Like I am truly grateful for the opportunity to, to come on here and talk with you and hear more about your story. ⁓ if you want to find me on social media, go to at underscore trip, sitting underscore, ⁓ Instagram and Tik TOK is where I’m most active. And then if you’re interested in conscious for, you know, if you’re, if you’re, if you’re listening to this, go to first, go to the war.
Cam (49:22)
⁓ but if, you know, if you’re, you’re interested in exploring other ones, check out a conscious retreats .net. ⁓ and you could get in contact with me there too. ⁓ and feel me to feel free to just send an email or send a DM. My email is tripsittingblog at gmail .com.
Sam Believ (49:38)
Cool, thank you Cameron, thank you for coming on.
Cam (49:41)
Thank you, Sam. Much love, brother.
Sam Believ (49:44)
Guys, thank you for listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. If you enjoyed, leave us a like, whatever you’re listening and subscribe. And I’ll see you in the next episode.